Hello All, Grace and Peace be to you!
Yesterdays post about Ray Comfort’s “The Way of The Master” got me a few “unsatisfied” comments. They referred to Ray and Kirk as abrasive, disturbing and ineffective.
I believe a few of them were Christians, (hard to tell by just a comment) which bothers me because when it comes to the cause of CHRIST we need to be rooting for each other. Ephesians 6:12 says… that we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Brothers and Sisters should not say horrible things against another in CHRIST. If you have an issue with a brother or sister in CHRIST, then you must Biblically prove what they are doing is wrong. Then approach him/her in love. If you come against a brother or sister unjustly, and/or unloving, then you are letting the enemy use you to tear down the kingdom of GOD.
They called Ray and Kirk abrasive. When Ray and Kirk are witnessing they use the Ten Commandment’s to reveal the sin of the person, and then reveal Jesus as SAVIOR. I am not sure how they could say they are abrasive, but I think it’s because they come out and ask if the people have lied, stolen, or committed adultery. Let’s look at what John 4:7-26 say’s… A woman of Samaria came to draw water. JESUS said to her, “GIVE ME a drink.” For HIS disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. Then the woman of Samaria said to HIM, “How is it that YOU, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans. JESUS answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of GOD, and who it is who says to you, “Give ME a drink, you would have asked HIM, and HE would have given you living water.” The woman said to HIM, “SIR, YOU have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do you get that living water?” “Are YOU greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?” JESUS answered and said to her, “Who ever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.” The woman said to HIM, “SIR, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.” JESUS said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.” The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.” JESUS said to her, “You have well said, ‘I have no husband,’ “for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.” The woman said to HIM, “SIR, I perceive that YOU are a prophet.” “Our fathers worshipped on this mountain and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.” “You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is when the true worshippers will worship the FATHER in SPIRIT and TRUTH.” The woman said to HIM, “I know that Messiah is coming”
(who is called CHRIST). “When HE comes, HE will tell us all things.” JESUS said to her, “I who speak to you am HE”
Luke 18:18-23 says… Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” So JESUS said to him, “Why do you call ME good? No one is good but ONE, that is, GOD. You know the commandments: ‘Do no commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ Honor your father and your mother.’” And he said, “All these I have kept from my youth.” So when JESUS heard these things, HE said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow,” But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful for he was very rich.
If we would have had a rolling camera on JESUS at those times, we would see exactly what Ray is doing. JESUS with the woman at the well, started talking to her about the natural, then HE addressed her adultery, (using the commandments to convict her heart) HE then swung the conversation to the spiritual and finally revealing HIMSELF. Do you think JESUS sounded a little abrasive, disturbing, or do you think HE was ineffective?
The woman at the well believed and went to town telling others of her testimony. JESUS definitely had an effect on her.
JESUS went directly to the Ten Commandment’s, when He was talking to the Rich Young Ruler. JESUS addressed his idolatry (the second commandment) with his money, trying to convict his heart (and he already knew who JESUS was, but the ruler chose his money.) This shows that not all who hear the message of CHRIST will accept HIM, for the worldly desires are too attractive.
If one does not truly understand they are a sinner, they will not understand the sacrifice and why they need saved and from what. What does the BIBLE say converts the soul? Psalm 19:7 says…The law (Ten Commandments) of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul. Ray and Kirk are out there doing the work of the LORD. They use the Law to convert the soul and then reveal JESUS’ forgiveness. Most “Christians” do not share their faith at all with anyone. Many people have come to know JESUS through their faithful service by going to the streets and witnessing. The comment about them being ineffective is incorrect. Tell that to all the people who have a relationship with JESUS because of their obedience. Ray and Kirk are definitely, very effective.
Not only are they effective in bringing people to CHRIST, but they are effective in making people very upset with them. Why are they so good at making others upset? 1Corinthians 1:18 says…For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of GOD.
2 Corinthians 2:14 says…But the natural man does not receive the things of the SPIRIT of GOD, for are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. It is not Ray and Kirk that the unsaved are really attacking, it is the message. Christians who attack them are out of line and they should know better. Christians do not attack, we show love.
Those who are attacking Ray and Kirk do not understand that GOD has set them in motion. You may not like their way of witnessing, but don’t blast them, pray for them if you think they are wrong, and also pray that GOD would open your mind of understanding if you are the one in error.
God uses the weak to confound the strong. He uses the simple to confound the wise. He uses the obscure man to confound the proud. Why? Because we were created to glorify God.
Let’s glorify our HEAVENLY FATHER by getting along with one another in one body working together for the purposes of GOD. Remember, LOVE is the greatest commandment of all.
DISCLAIMER:
I welcome comment’s, but I would appreciate if we could curb the insults to one another. My blog is of peace and love. I know the world does not reflect love much, but I want to show the LOVE OF CHRIST here on this blog site.
If there is any use of foul language I will immediately delete it.
I encourage debate, but being mean or bullying others will not be tolerated.
I love the LORD and it is my hope that all will come to know the SAVING GRACE OF JESUS. If not, you may look around, but be graceful.
GOD Bless You!
Posts
Matthew C. Keegan said...
Donna, you make some very good points, particularly in the way that people respond.
So-called Christians need to read 1 Corinthians 13 and take it to heart. Love isn't boastful nor is it rude. Nor does it provoke, is unkind, jealous nor does it fail.
I find that the comments some people make about other believers violates the way Christians are supposed to conduct themselves with each other -- you have every right to delete the obnoxious posts and leave it at that.
January 6, 2009 at 10:45 AM
Donna Bragg said...
Matthew Keegan,
Thank you for the encouragement. I just want us all to be kind to each other, even we do not agree on every point every time.
I am glad you added 1 Corinthians 13:1 too, I wished I would have added that one too. It is sooo good.
Your sister in CHRIST,
Donna
January 6, 2009 at 11:02 AM
Anonymous said...
Donna,
I am sorry If i was offensive, I tried to choose words and language that were to the point but not insulting...perhaps I made a mistake in my last comment on the other thread...if so I apologize.
I have read Ray Comforts debate points, tracts, and watched a few of his videos...If Jesus were to talk up to me like Ray does I would have had ample opportunity to dismantle him, and this whole christian religion wouldn't even exist. Ray makes BAD points, bananas and coke cans...and thinks that if you don't think they are GOOD points then you must be a blind and ignorant Atheist... Ray talks fast and makes no real point in anything I have ever heard him say, just go to his blog, see how mean he is to the Atheists there...(some may deserve it mind you) but he certainly sets a bad example and doesn't listen to their points... his blog is at http://raycomfortfood.blogspot.com
I understand your desire to come closer to God and to evangelize people...truly I do, because I have been there, but if you have to learn it from these guys then your gonna find yourself in a pretty severe hole one day with the wrong unbeliever and he might just crush your world of faith and create in you all sorts of doubts that you may not be ready to face...which in my view is a good thing, but im thinking from the Christian mindset here....either way good luck finding something better to learn from...and thanks for advertising on my blog!
January 6, 2009 at 11:41 AM
Donna Bragg said...
Matt,
I certainly do appreciate your kindess. Thank you!
It takes alot of courage to do what Ray and Kirk do. To face people on the street that MAY bash their face in, but they still do it.
I understand what he is saying about the building needing to have a builder, and a coke can needing to have someone design it, and Ray is just saying that if people would just REALLY take a long look at the world, people would see that it was perfectly designed. It being so perfect for man. It has everything we need on it. I have watched many of his dvds and I understand what he is saying.
I am so sorry that you do not understand and find him offensive, I only see his love for others.
Now, that being said, I do believe once a person has said they are not interested, a witness for JESUS should politely back away, and kindly say "I will pray for you", and go to the next person. I have seen him do that a few times, but I understand too, that he is desperate to reach people to warn them of a horrible place that he does not want anyone to go to.
When I posted about the woman at the well. Did you not see how JESUS talked to the woman? It could be said that JESUS was talking rude to her, but HE knew what was needed to reach her heart. That is what Ray does.
The Bible says that not everyone will understand, because of lack of faith. Maybe it is because you do not have faith. You know, all you need is faith as big as a mustard seed. Maybe try to understand his point of view.
My friend just flew to go to a conference with Ray and kirk and she said that he really does love people. Please Matt, try to understand. I know you say you do not believe in GOD, but don't take it from me or anyone else, ask GOD HIMSELF. HE will definitly answer you. It may not be today or tomorrow or maybe HE will. I do not know, but please investigate, before you make a really bad decision.
You are very kind and I am really happy you came back. I pray for you Matt. I want you as my brother forever. Is that wrong? :)
In service for CHRIST,
Donna
January 6, 2009 at 2:15 PM
Anonymous said...
I think that indeed it is important and amazing that Jesus recognized others, recognized their sins, and loved them despite their sins. Of course Christians should believe and follow biblical truth, stand up for biblical truth, and express that biblical truth to others. But I think it's important to be thoughtful of the WAY you express biblical truth.
If a Christian friend of mine were to sin, I'd more than likely have a conversation with her about it and eventually she will appreciate the challenge I'm offering her. These conversations are appropriate because they are done within the context of a relationship. On the other hand, calling out a complete stranger on his or her sinful behavior in the middle of a public street in front of a video camera will NOT be perceived as loving by any means. It will be perceived judgmental.
What Christians need to understand is that our excited proclamation of the truth may not seen as loving by those who don't believe what we believe. And aren't we called to first and foremost LOVE our neighbor?
I was a communication major in college and the first lesson I learned about effective communication is: "know your audience." I really think Messiah College taught me well on this one. As Christians, when we know our audience we are forming relationships with them--the first step towards love. We learn about their lives, mourn as they mourn, rejoice when they rejoice, and understand their struggles. We are able to more effectively discuss the gospel with them because since we know them and have invested time in them, we know how to better communicate with them.
Perhaps Jesus did come across as rude to the woman at the well. But he's Jesus! He's allowed to judge. We're human and we are not called to do that. We are called to build relationships, love others, tell the world about our awesome Jesus, rinse and repeat. We do not need to abrasively share our faith with strangers in order to do that.
I guess all I'm saying is to put yourself in the non-Christian's shoes. What would you think if you were a non-Christian approached by Kirk Cameron? How would you feel if he grilled you about your faith and called you a lying thief? How open would be to give your heart to his god? Kirk and Ray may have godly intentions, but I really think God shakes his head in sadness when He sees His children attack His other children who have not yet given themselves to Him. I really do.
Love God...love others...nothing else matters,
Akirah
January 6, 2009 at 8:52 PM
Anonymous said...
Hi again Donna,
Thank you for the response.
I will give you that it does take a certain amount of courage to do what they do, at one point in my life I was an apologist like Ray and Kirk try to be, I was a lot more successful (fame aside, my success rate was likely better, i certainly didn't get the opportunity to deal with the masses that they do) at it than they.
My point is that it isn't that i dont comprehend and therefore UNDERSTAND the points they are trying to make, because I very well do get the points, I just think that they are almost always VERY bad points....the Banana argument and the infamous Can of Coke argument are utterly ludicrous...and so are his arguments regarding the painting having a painter....When someone points out the folly of those analogies he uses Ray just ignores it...thats bad apologetics and it shows me that Ray may not be very wise as to what he is talking about.
I also comprehend the offensiveness of the Gospel, as a former evangelical Christian providing the gospel to those without it was one of the most important aspects of my daily life...It is offensive because of the things it requires and the punishments it points out for those that do not follow it. Only after I was able to look at Christianity in an objective sense (IE not being a part of it) was I able to realize just how offensive it was---the notion that God our loving creator was sending 90% of his population to eternal torture and hellfire...
So let me just say that I do understand , and there was a point in my life where my faith was much greater than a mustard seed...examining it again i realize how much folly it truly was.
I don't doubt that Kirk and Ray love people, I do too, and i did as a Christian...but I didn't always understand the best way to show that love...
as far as bad decisions go, God should do a better job convincing me of his existence---if he loves me then that burden belongs to God-not me and not you.
I have handled a lot of ray's arguments on a few posts on my blog @
http://ragingrev.com/2008/10/06/ray-comfort-vs-the-evile-atheists/
btw...forgive me, but i know that the language in the above link is a little condescending...im trying to avoid being like that now, but I was bitter when i wrote that...so please don't let it offend you.
and No it isnt wrong for you to desire my salvation, i understand and can empathize with that line of thought because I have been there with many unbelievers before...I think it is noble but misguided...none the less, i do appreciate the thought.
January 7, 2009 at 3:27 PM
okaonis said...
I think Ray Comfort is a normal Christian, and a good one at that. The early Christians were no different either.
Remember Stephen? The first marytr? He spoke against his fellow Jews that they were like blind men leading the blind. Religion alone is fatal and definitely not God-honoring. The Jews have forgotten that behind their religious festivities should be a heart that is submissive and obedient to God.
Stephen wasn't a criminal but he was killed because he exposed the truth behind the hypocrisy of the religious Jews.
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
-Matthew 7
The only way to discredit a Christian is when he lives & dies and leaves a legacy of immorality and injustice. I don't see that with the early martyrs nor with Ray.
January 7, 2009 at 10:49 PM